User talk:Franken Kesey/Mr. Hyde (3.5e Optimized Character Build)
=Old Comments= comments done before revamp Name Whats the name of the old story where a doctor turns into a serial killer a night? Thought it would be a more fitting name. --Franken Kesey 05:00, April 1, 2010 (UTC) : Dr. Jekyll (turns into Mr. Hyde). --Ghostwheel 05:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC) Optimization How is this optimized? Just for comparison, an actual optimized version of changing ones shape can be found here under "highlights". --Ghostwheel 05:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :I have yet to add items, and have only the things found on this wiki for reference. Yes, this build has: half the Str and utterly upholing AC in comparison to the Psionic Monk (3.5e Optimized Character Build). Yet it does 206 damage in an average round (assuming 2/3 of slams hit) in 4 less levels, and doesn't need the uninterrupted 2 round buff needed in yours (defently weaker though). :As noted above my only source of reference is here - I don't even have the players handbook! I was wondering if taking the Warshaper class for the last 3 levels would be better (not to playgerize or anything). If so I would need, at the very least, the class features for Warshaper. Thanks for tagging --Franken Kesey 07:14, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :: I'd highly recommend acquiring as many of the books then. Start with optimizing things created by WotC, not homebrew. And between psionic containment, link power, hustle, etc, you don't actually need to spend more than one actual round buffing yourself up (if that at all). With that in mind, there's still a ~800 DPR difference--and the psimonk's weighed vs. AC 40. At any rate, get the books and begin looking through them. --Ghostwheel 20:01, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Now does ca.350 more dmg than your psimonk build, but AC is still way below norm - does dmg compensate? Should some of the arms hold shields instead? Sorry had assumed it took 2 rounds (thanks for clarifying). :::: Could you actually write down the attacks and damages of each attack in a single round, including where the damage comes from? You say 350 more damage, but on the actual page it's such a jumbled mess that it's really hard to tell what's from where. --Ghostwheel 23:10, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::Will definatly write down give me a bit of time. Sorry only does 200 more dmg than your monk - had been looking at your Knightly Charger (3.5e Optimized Character Build) and had gotten them mixed up. Does the rage dice increase when size increases? Thanks --Franken Kesey 23:33, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::: Does it say that it does? If not, then no. --Ghostwheel 23:40, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Checked, Didn't say it did - fixed. Currently this build does ca.700 more damage than your Knightly Charger (3.5e Optimized Character Build), and ca.500 more than your Psionic Monk (3.5e Optimized Character Build). While there still are some technical problems, it would appear that its pretty optimised. Right? Being thus, would anybody mind if I changed the reason for incomplete template to "technical problems"? Thanks --Franken Kesey 04:03, April 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::: Which variant are you using? If you're using the Balanced CWBL one, you've still got things completely messed up. And you'd need to enchant each arm seperately. And where does it say that each one naturally has a claw on it? So no, have a lot more to fix. --Ghostwheel 04:07, April 2, 2010 (UTC) Balance CWBL You might want to read it again. You've posted it a number of times, but haven't gotten it right. For example, at every 3 levels you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to all ability scores. Also, Getting Flaming would cost 6k at level 4, which you don't have. Furthermore, a manual of gainful exercise costs 110k at level 7... when you only have 11.5k total to spend (including the cost of the weapon enhancements) if you're not using the second half (and if so, there's no point in even mentioning costs). Seriously, read it again thoroughly and understand how it works. --Ghostwheel 05:57, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :As noted above I have no form of reference for items other than your variant.Yet, unlike most other builds/NPCs that i've made , its optimal for this build. The "+1 enhancement bonus to all ability scores" I thought was way to powerful at first (reason for me doing it to just 1). But its been up for long enough without major question - so will start using. Flaming is a +1 bonus weapon - "you get a +1 bonus to 1 weapon at 4th level" (from variant) - whats the problem with that? Will move tome to higher level --Franken Kesey 07:14, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Since the bonuses to all ability scores are basically at the expense of all stat-boosting items whatsoever, it basically prevents abuse of the wish spell and uber-toming (not really a term, I know, but hopfully you all understand). - TG Cid 20:38, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::: Actually, they're only at the expense of items that grant enhancement to stats. The part that does the other part (nixes the need for tomes and wishes) is the +1 to two stats at every even level HR in the grimoire system. But yes, things like gloves of dex, periapt of wisdom, etc, are all gone with the Balanced CWBL variant. That said, it might be interesting to incorporate that into this variant instead of making it its own rule, though I'd have to rework the wealth assigned at appropriate levels. --Ghostwheel 20:52, April 1, 2010 (UTC) Le Sigh Alright, let's look at the actual damage done here at level 20. We'll be assuming that the primary attack gets the full +5 weapon bonus for simplicity's sake--not that it'll make much of a difference. Attack Bonus: 17 (BAB) + 12 (Str) - 4 (Multiweapon Fighting) + 5 (Primary only) + 2 (Rage) - 4 (Size) = +28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12 Damage (Primary): 6d6 (Base) + 5d6 (Barbarian) + 2 (Rage) + 12 (Str) +5d6+5 (Magic) = 75 Damage (Secondary): 6d6 (Base) + 5d6 (Barbarian) + 2 (Rage) + 6 (Str) = 46.5 DPR: (9/20 * 75) + (4/20 * 46.5 * 7) + (4/20 * 75) + (1/20 * 46.5 * 13) + (1/20 * 75 * 2) = 33.75 + 65.1 + 15 + 30.225 + 7.5 = 151.575 DPR vs. AC 40 So in the end, you get 151 DPR... which sucks for the level of material you're using. In a fighter-level game? Sure, it would be good. But you're using wizard-level stuff. I'd expect a lot more, and it's not being delivered whatsoever. --Ghostwheel 19:42, April 5, 2010 (UTC) :I would also question the purpose of having an so-called "Optimized Character Build" using Rogue- and Wizard-level homebrew material (which is essentially supposed to be pre-optimized in my opinion, thus negating the need to create something like this). If anything, the fact that this build, which is an amalgam of Rogue and Wizard level material, only has 151 DPR against AC 40 shows the futility of attempting to further optimize Rogue/Wizard-level material, since I would guess that most of the component classes can easily exceed that DPR when taken alone (Tome Barbarian can for sure, and Fiendish Brute should surpass it easily as well). - TG Cid 20:51, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Plus, am I the only one perplexed by the fact that the Outsider type is necessary to take levels in the Fiendish Brute class, and none of the racial traits (or anything, as far as I can see) in this build adresses actually becoming an outsider? I get the feeling that without that, there's even less to be thrilled about. - TG Cid 21:02, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::: Otherworldly from the racial rebuild variant would let you become an outsider... but I don't think that it's possible to take both Large and Otherworldly (Outsider), since it'd take way too many trait slots, and thus even that part is currently invalid. --Ghostwheel 21:08, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ---- =New Comments= Comments after revamp Optimised This build does ca. 4800 dmg on average for 3 hours once buffed - isn't that optimised? Compared to other builds, like: the Psionic Monk (3.5e Optimized Character Build) does ca. 1000 buffed; the Knightly Charger (3.5e Optimized Character Build) does ca. 800; or the Machine Gun Assassin (3.5e Optimized Character Build) does ca. 550 dmg. In other words This build does more than, 2 times the combined damage of all 3 builds! And can destroy 236 CR of creatures! Whats not optimised about that? --Franken Kesey 23:08, April 19, 2010 (UTC) Wizard Level Material While I am aware that two of the classes used in this build are using Frank and K wizard level material (i.e. wizard+); it would appear that wizard level classes are not over-powered when neither goes above 7th level. I am under the impression that wizard level is build for higher levels. Thus a 7th level wizard class, would appear to be more of a fighter level (on the higher part of its spectrum). Let me know if this assumption is incorrect. --Franken Kesey 23:08, April 19, 2010 (UTC) :Actually, Wizard-level material is intended to be highly competitive and effective (i.e. on par with a well-played wizard) across all levels of the game. The fact that this class of material excels at higher levels while others do not is more a condemnation of the lower balance levels that are not competitive across all levels than anything else. As such, the argument that a 7th-level wizard is fighter level is incorrect; when played correctly, a wizard is wizard-level at any level. - TG Cid 23:29, April 21, 2010 (UTC) :: That's especially true when playing a class that's wizard-level without multiclassing, or making intelligent multiclassing choices. However, when you get into retarded multiclassing choices (like in this build), you can end up with a build that's fighter-level (or even monk-level) rather than wizard-level (like in this build). --Ghostwheel 23:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC) Rules Also, what rules have I broken in this build? --Franken Kesey 23:08, April 19, 2010 (UTC) :The "total cr in 1 round" thing is garbage. 2 cr 29's make a cr 30 for example. i think like 4 cr 29s make a cr 31. so its not ZOMG cr. also to get expansion up to huge size you need to be manifest as a 7th level Psi-war, which you're not showing. And the levels of wilder.. why? it doesn't seem to work with this build. also using a bunch of stuff you made up is well... cheating. not cheating as much as "Lemme make a bunch of stuff and call it optimized". Its like famous people winning a local battle of the bands. They could do it, but its kind of a d-bag move--NameViolation 04:33, April 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Fixed total CR; was using to show the magnitude of dmg - is there a better method? The Wilder levels are mostly to gain more power points than an average Psi-warrior - will replace with Psi warrior. Do you have any better methods of increasing power points? I agree that using alot of my stuff is lame, yet I only created the race and 3 racial feats. Would adding another tail be better than the 3 feats? Thanks--Franken Kesey 04:53, April 20, 2010 (UTC) ::: have atleast 3 levels of SRD:War_Mind (but you need an existing Power point and using psy-war to get there is like spitting on a fish) or Psy-war and take Practiced manifester for a +4 ML, so you can just squeeze out a 7pp expansion. thats the quick and dirty way. Maybe take overchannel, Practiced manifester, and 2 levels if you don't mind blowin a psionic focus (since they's free). you can take srd talented if you dont wanna take the d8 damage, but this build has fast healing so its kinda pointless. if you only have a 14 wis at 20 you'll need 3 levels of psy-war, but then you wont actually need overchannel. with a 14 wis you'll have 6pp with 2 psy-war lwevels or 8 with 3 levels. Since Practiced MAnifester raises your ML and bonus pp are based of stat and ML you can raise your stat or ML thew various conventional means to gain more pp. --NameViolation 05:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::: Where to start...? Let's look at the actual DPR of this build. We'll pretend that half of this build works (when it doesn't), and go with the actual numbers to show that it fails rather badly. :::: So let's start with damage; colossal+ b-sword damage is 1d10 (Medium) -> 2d8 (Large) -> 3d8 (Huge) -> 4d8 (Gargantuan) -> 6d8 (Colossal) -> 8d8 (Colossal+), along with a +14 Strength bonus (+7 to offhand ones), +2 to damage from Barbarian, and +5+5d6 damage from a magical weapon at level 20 for the primary hand if we're using the Balanced CWBL rules. That means 8d8+5d6+14+2 which is 36+17.5+16 for the primary hand (69.5 on average), and 8d8+7+2 which is 45 on average for the offhand. :::: Attack: 13 (BAB) + 17 (Offhand) - 8 (Size) + 2 (Rage) = +24/+19/+14 (with +5 to attack for the primary hand) :::: That gives us the following for DPR vs. AC 40: :::: Primary Hand: 69.5 * 10/20 + 69.5 * 5/20 + 69.5 * 1/20 = 17.375 + 8.6875 + 3.475 = 29.5375 :::: Offhand: 45 * 3 * 5/20 + 45 * 3 * 1/20 * 2 = 33.75 + 13.5 = 47.25 :::: Thus, on a full attack, we get a total DPR of 29.5375 + 47.25 = 76.7875. Truly pitiful--even lower than the damage a rogue-level combatant would bring to the table. Seriously, please do the math yourself first, and check it. If it's subpar, don't bring it at all. --Ghostwheel 06:05, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::Not to forget the fact that you require at least two rounds worth of buffs (according to the Tactics section) before you could even use that combination. Unless, of course, you walked around with those buffs applied constantly. That cuts your DPR (no matter what it originally is) by two thirds (I didn't see above, GW, so I thought I would mention it). That aside, you can't really make the assumption that you are automatically going to hit and do maximum damage, especially with only +27 attack at level 20 (which even with "size detriment negated" as it says in the column is pretty crappy). Anyone who has played D&D that the idea of hitting for maximum damage every time (short of using Maximize Spell) is impossible. So it really can't factor into your calculations. I'm only assuming that that's what you're doing, since there is such a gross discrepancy between your caluclated DPR and Ghostwheel's. The other bad assumptions include automatically hitting (already mentioned, but can't be stressed enough) and being able to make a cleave attempt (which it appears by your calculations would also be an auto-hit for max damage). - TG Cid 10:55, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::: You don't qualify for Fiendish Brute or Fiend feats because you're an Outsider of the Material Plane; rather than an Outsider with a plane of origin from the Lower Planes. Furthermore, Skander Rogue 19 with Product of Infernal Dalliance, Extra Arms (at 6th, 12th and 18th) and Craven has four pairs of arms wielding shortswords, 2d6+9d6+19 sneak attack per attack minimum. As long as you're sneak attacking, not hard to do every round, that's 3 attacks with your main hand and 14 attacks with your off-hands (in total) for 17 attacks per round, each at 11d6+19, for an average of 977.5 per round. Off the top of my head. I cannot, for the life of me, see why I would take your multiclassed atrocity over this. :::::: P.S the encounter level is 32, nowhere near the 200+ mark you've set yourself. --TK-Squared 12:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Name: Fixed with War Mind. What do you mean by Practiced manifester? :::::::Da' Thunder: It should only take 1 round to buff (thus average DPR should not be cut by 2/3rds, but should instead be cut by 1/3rd). Had been calculating dmg with the following equation: ((number of rolls x(average roll +.5)+any other modifiers)x number of non-crit hits)+(((number of rolls x(average roll +.5))x crit modifier +any other modifiers)x number of crit hits). And used the following rule for crits: whenever the ratio of crits to confirmed hits is below average crit range for a weapon, the crit(s) is/are justified. Is any of the above incorrect? :::::::Also, what should I replace his 2 levels of Fiendish Brute with? If the above is correct, it would appear the dmg in this build is at least 4x more than example (correct me if I'm wrong). Thanks--Franken Kesey 13:10, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::::P.P.S. working on encounter - will most likely be the last thing I finish. :::::::: Also, you've massacred BAB. BAB is not modified by anything. At all. It's just the BAB; please at least attempt to pretend you know the rules. --TK-Squared 13:27, April 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::: Zodiac Knight advances class abilities, not BAB or anything else. How are you applying for Fiendish feats (like Extra Arms, Extra Legs, Constricting Fiend, Huge Size, etc) without any levels of Fiendish Brute? Also, you can't "empower" Expansion to greater than two sizes. --Ghostwheel 18:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::@TK: You can qualify for Fiendish Brute without being from a Lower Plane yourself. You just have to have a parent, grandparent, etc. who was from a Lower Plane. The only hard-and-fast requirement is the Outsider type. --Quantumboost 20:03, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::OK, so the way I'm looking at it these buffs should take more than round round, like so: :::::::::::Round 1 :::::::::::*Swift Action: Expansion :::::::::::*Standard Action: Vampiric Blade :::::::::::Round 2 :::::::::::*Immediate Action: Rage :::::::::::*Free Actions: War Mind stuff :::::::::::*Standard Action: Offensive Precognition (with 15 extra power points for the +6 to attack) :::::::::::Round 3 :::::::::::*Do your thing. :::::::::::Three rounds total, since using an immediate action takes away any swift action for round 2 that would allow you to use Offensive Precognition as a swift, making it a standard and forcing you to wait another round. :::::::::::Another thing: speeding up the heartbeat should be removed as far as I can tell: if memory serves, that particular feature comes from a previous incarnation of the Skandar (which I feel is still exceedingly generous for a +2 LA race even in its present form) and is no longer applicable. :::::::::::Lastly, and this seems rather trivial in comparison to the other discrepancies that have been mentioned here, this build doesn't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the bastard sword (which is required to wield a bastard sword of appropriate size in one hand). Like I said, this doesn't seem that big a deal to me since you could probably swap the bastard swords for all scimitars and be better for it with the increased critical chance (which you would probably be leaning on, since your BAB is pretty crappy). - TG Cid 00:13, April 22, 2010 (UTC) <-- not typing that far over :Also for what its worth, this cant take war mind at the level 9. its a cross class skill till 7th level, and it only gets 1 skill point the level it is a class skill. it falls 1 rank of knowledge(psi) short. --NameViolation 01:23, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::He should be able to rage on an attackers turn, and do offensive precognition as a swift the following turn (using the argument). War Mind stuff is free, aren't free actions completely free? If so the present round time seems correct ::If I weakened the heart beat stuff by about half, would it be appropriate for a +2 LA race? ::Sorry forgot to put the variant that allows him to use the bastard sword - will post. ::Fixing classes - thanks for letting me know about the discrepancy. --Franken Kesey 03:11, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::"When doing melee damage to a foe or being struck by a foe, a Barbarian may choose to enter a Rage as an immediate action." not free action. there is a difference. SRD:Barbarian does it as a free action. Free actions can only be taken on your turn. there is specifically a feat to let SRD:Barbarian rage as an immediate action. But this is an immediate action, which takes either your swift action for the turn or the swift action from your next turn if you've already used your swift this turn. so you can "swift, move, standard, immediate" but the next round you could only "move, standard". --NameViolation 03:18, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::: Also, your "new" size gives you a -32 penalty to attacks and AC, continuing the progression. I doubt you're going to be able to hit the broad side of a barn easily. So yes, it still sucks. --Ghostwheel 05:04, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::A few quick questions: :::::*do powerful builds stack? :::::*What is the equation for finding the modifier of attacks, AC and the like with a colossal+++ creature? :::::*would Dragon Claws (3.5e Equipment) be better than the Nodachi? If he had dragon claw could do grapples and rakes adding about +30 to his low BAB - just dmg would be about 2/3 of what it is now. --Franken Kesey 05:13, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::: No :::::: 1 * 2 ^ (sizes above large) :::::: Dunno, but the nodachi is a two-handed weapon. How are you using it one-handed? --Ghostwheel 05:25, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::He has 10 hands, so initially had been attacking with 4 nodachi - never was using 1 handed. Any ideas on how to raise his hit chance? --Franken Kesey 05:31, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::: with feat purchasing you actually need the skill points to spend. since you dont have skill points for the first 2 levels, all the feats from feat purchasing are delayed by 2 levels. also for the hulk class, you need a BAB of 8 to ENTER the class, not 7 and then a level in the class to make a BAB of 8. also, i don't think the piano should be there. any thing with the "April Fools" tag shouldn't be used in optimization. now with feat purchasing and a low int, you won't be able to make the 10 ranks of knowledge skill easy to get for war mind, i.e. almost impossible. between the 8 ranks of know (psy), 2 of know (history), not to mention the 8 ranks of prof (astrologer) for Zodiak knight.--NameViolation 05:34, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::: How to raise your attack roll: don't take so many size penalties to attack and AC. --Ghostwheel 05:36, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Fixing skill points such that he has 12 skill points at 10th level. Whenever he gains another base class are skills x4? Gotta go... --Franken Kesey 05:58, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::: ...No. Just... just no. x4 is only at first level. Also, Hulk Up (and Colossal Rage) don't stack with Expansion, so that's 2 size categories gone there. --Ghostwheel 06:06, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::Didn't think so - was just making sure. (still should have enough points). Why don't they stack? Also does expansion and enlarge stack, or expansion caste again? If he were able to get a psi tattoo or an intelligent item do it again - he would do immensely more dmg. --Franken Kesey 06:42, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::: No, Enlarge Person and Expansion don't stack. That's why the enlargement from Hulk Up (which is done like Enlarge Person, as it's written) doesn't stack with Expansion. --Ghostwheel 06:46, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::::If expansion is done again would that stack? --Franken Kesey 06:56, April 22, 2010 (UTC) <-- Again, not writing small :12 skill points at 10th still wont cut it, with cross class cost on every skill you need for pre reqs. plus the point every level for feat purchasing--NameViolation 07:19, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :: (Get a bigger screen) - Swift Augmented (to x2) Expansion costs 13 Power Points. At Manifester Level 7, you can only manifest 7pp per power. And size increasing spells and powers do not stack with other size increasing spells and powers. --TK-Squared 09:30, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::Don't you think the fact that we keeping poking innumerable holes into this proves that there is something fundamentally wrong with the basic premise? The heartbeat thing should be removed altogether since it no longer appears to be part of the Skandar race, so nerfing it is not sufficient. It should just be gone. Plus, why did you increase the Strength bonus from the Skandar even though we all agreed that it was generous as an LA +2 race before? :::Now that I actually took the time to look at them, just about all the weapons you were/are using (previously bastard swords, still Jagged hammer, Steambolt Minigun, and Nodachi) are all exotic. Even if you can still wield them (and even though it doesn't say this I would make the minigun unusable without EWP since it doesn't reguire attack rolls), you take a -4 penalty to all attack rolls made with them because you don't even have Exotic Weapon Proficiency for any of them. And that means you would have to take a minimum of two feats to rectify that. In addition, it means you don't qualify for Jack of Spades (which requires you to have Weapon Focus, which requires you to be proficient) unless you take it for the Dragon Claws. Even so, that's the only Weapon Focus feat you can take before you are barred from the Jack of Swords. :::Also, the Skandar shouldn't get any racial BAB (since it doesn't get any racial HD) so the +1 you give their should go out the window. That means your final BAB (without any modifiers) comes out to +15/+10/+5 (+5 Barbarian, +3 Jack of Swords, +2 War Mind, +5 Totemist). :::Just with those three points, you now incur a -8 penalty to your already mediocre attack bonus (-4 MWF, -4 for any exotic melee weapons). Even with 44 Strength (14 base, +6 race, +2 Chain of Personal Superiority, +2 Huge Size, +4 Double Expansion, +16 BCWL), you come out with a paltry +24 attack (+2 rage, +5 BCWL, +1 ambidexterous, -8 size, -4 MWF, and -4 for all exotic weapons) which means you won't hit to save your life. - TG Cid 21:04, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::I know I must be the most annoying person in the world right now, but Ezurian sabers are still exotic (it says so right at the top of the page). That's basically the tradeoff for having high damage or a high critical threat range or some other extra nice goody. If anything, all those sabers dig you into a deeper pit because the Dragon Claws that you replaced were the only martial weapons you had (i.e. the ones that didn't incur those penalties). - TG Cid 21:46, April 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::Had stopped calculation the heart beat a while ago (still working on it on the appropriate page). Had raised the str and con by 2 each, but dropped 4 dex, heart beat, fur, and a few other things - isn't that close to (if anything less than) the power it was? Check out the two variants at the top of the page titled: UA:Weapon Group (Light Blades)(Ezurian Saber), and UA:Weapon Group (Heavy Blades), with what follows them (should explain the exotic weapons - except the minigun which I didn't think needed it). :::::The +1 BAB at first and second level are from his Musclebound trait - not racial. Noting that it was a permanent bonus I put it with BAB. :::::Thus BAB should be correct, but are correct, his attack bonus needs to be raised (the Achilles heel of this build) -any ideas? :::::: MUscle bound doesnt give a bonus on attack rolls. it says skill checks and ability checks. so climb gets +1, and if you make a STR check (like to break an object) you get +1, but not +1 to hit.--NameViolation 22:29, April 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::: where are people getting a -32 to hit from size? are there actually rules for that? all i can find is Colossal and Colossal+ are -8 to hit. since the 2 catagories share modifiers, and no other size catagories do, i'd think it stops at -8. i cant find anything on the wiki about Colossal+ or bigger.--NameViolation 00:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::: Size modifiers double per size category. --TK-Squared 10:01, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::but colassal and collassal+ share -8. unlike any other catagory. is there any thing specifically talking about colassal+++? if colassal and Colassal+ share -8, why not others? i always thought above colassal were "virtual" size catagories, which is why colassal+ gets -8. if they kept going, colassal+ should have been -16, but its not, leading me to believe thats where it maxes out. only thing i could find in the SRD references dragons ". Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below. In addition, the breath weapon of the oldest epic dragons is a larger cone than most Colossal dragons possess.' The size modifier for these dragons remains –8'."--NameViolation 10:11, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::: For those dragons, yes. But, the trend is 1 * 2^(sizes above large), as it doesn't specify that the size itself lacks this modifier. This is also because Colossal+ and subsequent increases are not properly defined by the SRD. --TK-Squared 11:48, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::but colossal+ is in size catagories, and specifically doesn't get -16. if the trend continued, it would have had -16, not still -8. it looks like they specifically stopped size mods after -8. its rather random to skip the rule 1 time, and then continue it again. it'd be like a 20th level fighter with a 19 bab. just doesnt make senseand i cant find anything to the contrary. the point is probably moot for this build, and i don't think anyone weapons get better (only natural attacks are specifically mentioned, and whose got the resources and desire to make a colassal +++ weapon)--NameViolation 12:11, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::: The fact of the matter is that's NOT in the SRD's size categories tables. It's mentioned in the Epic Dragons only. This is due to the ELH being a handover from 3.0, poorly though-out and when there was no real need for any rules over Colossal. If it did not specifically state "for these dragons", I'd agree; but it does, which makes it SPECIFIC to the dragons, not to the size categories. These points stem from the fact there is no Colossal+ really defined. The only time sizes above Colossal are properly defined are from the Immortal's Handbook, which is third party. --TK-Squared 12:16, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD%3ATable_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale has colossal+ in the size table. --NameViolation 12:20, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::: Your attempts to try and look clever are proven wrong by the fact that that is NOT in the SRD, but rather that is a holdover from D&D Wiki's edited table. Heck, that table isn't even in the Wizard's SRD. The SRD instead has this table. --TK-Squared 12:58, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::::well if that shits not SRD why is it labeled SRD? way to proper lable shit--NameViolation 18:16, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::::: Or because we took the pages from the other wiki and they had it on there. It is possible we didn't check every part of the SRD for things like that. It has been changed for now. --TK 21:17, April 24, 2010 (UTC)